Heroes Con Day 2

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After Friday’s rumor-fest, things settled down a bit at HeroesCon on Saturday. There was a big line to get in, and good crowds for the entire day, although not everyone benefitted, as you will see as this article progresses.

Even with all the speculation over his job, Dan DiDio still had the intestinal fortitude to head the DC Nation panel–you gotta admit, it’s a lot easier to post something on an internet message board than to stand up in front of a room full of people and answer questions like this:

Q: Why did the New Gods appear in Final Crisis after we saw them die in Death of the New Gods? DD: We knew that a new interpretation of the New Gods was coming, in fact, a large portion of Final Crisis is about the birth of the 5th world and the gods of that world. The purpose of Death of the New Gods was to celebrate the Jack Kirby versions and to bring closure of those versions. But you’ll see how the rest are reborn in Final Crisis – that story is coming.


and this:

Q: Do you ever want to point a finger and say, it’s not me, it’s Morrison?

DD: No.

JJ: I do get very defensive at times, but it’s part of what we have deal with. But that said, nobody would want to do Dan’s job, or deal with what he has to deal with each day.

At that point, DiDio polled the panelists, asking them if they would want his job.

Matt Sturges: “No, god, no.”

Ethan VanSciver: “Nope”

Jimmy Palmiotti: “No comment.”

Jann Jones: “If it came with a closet of designer shoes.”


DiDio was a little less chipper at yesterday’s “State of the Industry Panel” which featured DiDio, Booom!’s Mark Waid, writer/artist Jimmy Palmiotti and Image head Erik Larsen. The panel set-up was fraught with potential tension: DiDio and Waid have had some differences in the past, and Palmiotti is the internet’s favorite pick to run DC after DiDio’s departure. Moderator Tom Spurgeon started out asking DiDio what kind of week he’d had, a nice enough way of leading into a touchy subject. DiDio responded that it was a week like any other, which could be the saddest line of the weekend.

The rest of the panel was a rather strained look at the biggest problems of comics, as getting new readers, maintaining old ones and dealing the the internet menace were hashed out. Waid declared that he would trade all the existing comics readers for a junior high school full of readers, and held up BRAVE AND THE BOLD as an example, yet again, of the idea of a non-tie in book failing.

DiDio described DC’s audience as a “collector market” but defended DC’s use of character deaths and upheavals at the same time by saying these plot devices always new for some one.

Larsen provided the biggest head scratchers on the panel. The Image publisher repeatedly referred to the upcoming Tori Amos anthology COMIC BOOK TATTOO as “Taboo,” showing a shaky grasp of his own line, and dismissed the subject of webcomics with a “I don’t like ‘em; I think they’re ugly.” wave of the hand.

Prior to that the Journalism panel covered many of the same topics. Matt Brady defended the new Newsarama by saying that he still edits all the comics coverage the same as before, and alluding to the pressures that all news site face over access.

While the mainstream part of Heroes Con seemed to be booming, things were not as happy in Indie Island, where a bunch of first time art comics exhibitors–Buenaventura, Picturebox, Bodega, Sparkplug–reported very lackluster sales. The crowd at Charlotte seemed to have very little awareness of their offerings. “It’s humbling,” said one publisher, who reported that numerous attendees had picked up a Chris Ware postcard and wondered who the artist was. Although there is clearly an indie arts scene here, the slow slaes in Indie Island proved that you could plunk down a MoCCA in the middle of a DC con, and not have the same results.

Comments

  1. DAMMIT! I wanted to go to Indie Island *so* bad! It just wasn’t in the cards this year…. I don’t know why it’s surprising indie publishers would have poor sales in the middle of a superhero con. The two audiences don’t mix – I know many of us indie readers dislike intermingling with superhero people. We’re not going to hop in a car and drive hundreds of miles, or fly a couple thousand miles, to go mix it up with superhero people so we can get to the good stuff in the middle. It’s a microcosm of the same reason the direct market is falling apart. But I just wanted to go this year because there’s no way something like this happens again….

  2. John Smith says:

    Perhaps Didiot would have better weeks if he published better comics.

  3. “the biggest problems of comics, as getting new readers, maintaining old ones and dealing the the internet menace were hashed out.”

    The idea they think of the web as a menace is the answer as to why comics is failing to get new readers and maintain old ones.

    When we live in an era where Sony pictures (or Paramount) debuts a movie online and mainstream comics doesn’t have a coherent online initiative it means comics executives have sat on their (meager) laurels for too long.

  4. Michael says:

    “Matt Brady defended the new Newsarama by saying that he still edits all the comics coverage the same as before”

    So, not at all, then.

  5. “Prior to that the Journalism panel covered many of the same topics. Matt Brady defended the new Newsarama by saying that he still edits all the comics coverage the same as before, and alluding to the pressures that all news site face over access.”

    Guess he solved that problem then, by making it conveniently HARDER to gain access to most actual comics news pieces, in favor of yet more studio press release butt-kissing puffery.

  6. If nothing else, things are sure looking ugly for these people. Once you get into that funk of being cranky because everyone smells blood in the water, it’s hard to flip yourself back to the positive side. Then everyone latches onto that, and troughs it at you, too. I’d be cranky, and I would not want their jobs. Although, if I did and Didio asked me if I did, I’d still say no, to be polite. DTA Didio. DTA.

  7. Mark Coale says:

    As much of a downturn DC may be going through, I feel bad for Didio likely having to deals with waves of angry fanboys this weekend, many of whom probably have no desire to express their issues politely.

  8. I, and two of the three people i rode with, traveled a couple hours to HeroesCon precisely to visit Indie Island. The creator that my friends were most eager to meet was Bryan Lee O’Malley. The only time i paid any attention to the “mainstream” parts of the con was when i was searching the dealers’ displays for a Love & Rockets book for Jaime Hernandez to sign. I spent my money on indie stuff.

    That said, yeah, lots of people–especially collectors and superhero-only fans–don’t know much about other types of comics. But isn’t that part of setting up at a con? To increase your “visibility”?

    I’m not trying to gripe…i had a great time there yesterday.

  9. Hey Heidi,

    I really enjoyed talking to you this weekend! Just wish I had a better answer for you when you asked “What do I do?” I’ll work on that. :D

    Anyway, finished The Nightmare Factory today and thought you everyone involved did an excellent job with Ligotti’s stories!

    – Jim

  10. I loved that I could get my indie and superhero fixes in one place. The fact I got to meet Matt Fraction and Jeffrey Brown in the same setting is awesome.

    For those still able to hit the Buenaventura booth, I’d suggest picking up Injury #1 and #2 by Ted May and Jason Robards. Good stuff. Even the superhero people might like them with all the cyborg vs. thug action. Personally, I’ll endorse any comic where the characters eat Imo’s Pizza and listen to Nazareth.

    I’d say to pick up Jason Shiga’s Bookhunter from Sparkplug, but you probably know that already.

  11. Im surprised by thar Erik larsen comment about webcomics. I mean i dont like them either but im not a publisher. He sounds like he is set in his ways. That does not bode well.

  12. “He sounds like he is set in his ways.”

    It’s easy to do, and I think that’s what a lot of these people are. You have to make yourself not be, and that’s the hard part. I know it’s hard for me, most of the time, but there are rewards to be had when you can let go of what “should be” or how things used to be, and embrace what can be.

  13. morganagrom says:

    “The rest of the panel was a rather strained look at the biggest problems of comics, as getting new readers, maintaining old ones and dealing the the internet menace were hashed out. Waid declared that he would trade all the existing comics readers for a junior high school full of readers, and held up BRAVE AND THE BOLD as an example, yet again, of the idea of a non-tie in book failing.”

    Wouldn’t that involve actually creating and marketing comics for junior high school readers instead of their parents?

  14. Mark Waid says:

    “Wouldn’t that involve actually creating and marketing comics for junior high school readers instead of their parents?”

    Yes, it would. As a creator, all I can do is create them for that readership, which I do. Pointedly. Whether I can actually physically get comics TO them or not. Marketing is beyond my control. But some of us have at least the first part of it covered. I wish more of the super-hero industry would follow suit, frankly, but that’s not my call.

  15. nvigneaux says:

    When I attend a convention, I have an agenda. For most people, indie comics aren’t a priority at shows which aren’t indie-centric. It’s usually on Sunday after everyone has sought out all of their main objectives that they start to wander and check out other stuff. So hopefully all of the indie folks saw an increase in business on Sunday because Heroes is an indie-firendly show, but it’s obviously not APE or MoCCA.

    I’m not a superhero fan, but I’m also not a big indie comics fan either. I read indie stuff which has received industry-wide praise, and most of the time I find it boring. I find a lot of superhero stuff boring too. That’s just the way it goes.

    When I am looking to fill my themed sketchbook, I’m looking for good artists, and most of them work on superheroes. Also, I found a lot of the area in Indie Island very cluttered with all of the table space filled with books. There was nowhere for me to fix my gaze on an image to draw me in. All it looked like was a mess of squiggly lines and colors smashed together. It makes it difficult to figure out what the drawings are trying to convey which is off-putting.

    However, I may be biased because my agenda for this year was get sketches, and I pretty much ignored the rest until Sunday when I started buying sketchbooks from various creators. Everything I have which I would have tried to get signed is boxed up, so at least I didn’t have that to worry about. And I should point out that stuff (including indie-stuff) I’ve picked up at previous conventions is still sitting unread in boxes. I couldn’t really justify getting more this year.

    So, don’t give up on Heroes, indie folks. Almost everyone has a difficult time exhibiting for the first time at a convention. Next year you’ll probably get a bunch of people who will say they remember you from the previous year but for whatever reason didn’t check out your booth and now they’re you’re newest customer.

  16. morganagrom says:

    “Yes, it would. As a creator, all I can do is create them for that readership, which I do. Pointedly. Whether I can actually physically get comics TO them or not. Marketing is beyond my control. But some of us have at least the first part of it covered. I wish more of the super-hero industry would follow suit, frankly, but that’s not my call.”

    Really? Which ones?

  17. “the biggest problems of comics, as getting new readers, maintaining old ones and dealing the the internet menace were hashed out.”

    What exactly do they mean when they say ‘The Internet Menace”

    Do they think the internet itself is a menace, because news and comments reach consumers too fast for them to have any control over it?

    Or worse, is it that they think people posting on the internet are a menace.

    If so, there’s your answer as to why publishers are having a major problem getting new readers and maintaining old ones.

    The people running the industry in today’s day and internet age have been quite vocal on said internet regarding how they feel about their customers who post on the internet. They’ve regarded them with such disdain, its quite shocking that they believe anyone would want to buy something from those who perceive them as ‘menaces’.

    Newsflash:

    1) PI (Pre-internet), there was this thing called the letter columns where companies printed letters of comment from their consumers who wrote to let them know how they felt about the comic (product) they purchased.

    This was during a time when, if they got negative letters, the companies could control public perception by deciding was printed in that column.

    Of course, this was also during a time when those running the industry valued their consumers, encouraged feedback and if enough sales and reaction were negative, major changes occured.

    Those people never blamed their consumers for reacting negatively, they looked at the work they were producing as the cause for such atrocious backlash.

    The internet has replaced the letter’s page of comment and now, companies have no control over public perception anymore since negative consumer comments can no longer be hidden from public display.

    Perhaps if those in the industry today weren’t so self-serving, they would understand that their work is the cause of the negativity on the internet… and again, they wouldn’t have the audacity to believe anyone would want to purchase product by those who thought of them as ‘menaces’.

    Comics are a product no different than anything else.

    To succeed in any business, those selling a product need to understand that a customer needs to feel respected, if not valued, if you want them to spend their money on you. When you begin dismissing them or regarding them with disdain, you lose them.

    This is common sense 101.

    2. Perhaps if there wasn’t such a glut of bad product that people were deceived into buying because they were promoted as being integral to another product (Countdown To Final Crisis – Death of The New Gods), those angry fanboys wouldn’t be so angry. Comics aren’t exactly cheap.

    Which brings us to…

    3. If the product was as good as those producing it believed it was, those new readers WOULD stick around, well, at least long enough to see how some creator came online to belittle their consumers, behaving to them with the same disdain as those they condemned.

  18. “I wish more of the super-hero industry would follow suit, frankly, but that’s not my call.”

    It’s clear the sooner I am Queen of the Universe, the better. I could fix that easy. Right after world peace and cancer, but I could.

  19. “Comics are a product no different than anything else.”

    While I understand and agree with some of the points you’ve made, I have to strongly disagree with this one. It’s this kind of thinking that has us in a rut to begin with. Comic books are different because they are also art. It’s all the marketing flash and pomp that a normal product like, tooth past, Axe cologne, insurance, e trade, energy drinks, and so on, get that’s bringing us down. I think that good stories and good art are what comics fans past, present, and futurama are all about. They want content that they can believe in. What it’s really no different then, is going to an art museum, stage play, gallery, concert, or reading a damn well written novel. Your experience with them feels like it means something when you’re having your interaction with it. You come away with a little piece of it, forever planted and growing in your soul. Good editors make sure that their artist are keeping up the good work, or at least doing a good job of bringing their own strong and meaningful vision. “Products” don’t do that. They just get used and forgotten. Fans can decide whether they want to buy it or not, but they cannot dictate (as many try to do) what it will or will not be.

  20. “Yes, it would. As a creator, all I can do is create them for that readership, which I do. Pointedly.”

    Which ones? I know its not Brave and the Bold. I dont know if kids want to try to decipher george perez panels after reading easy to follow manga. Now us adults, thats a different story but kids i dont know.

  21. brett says:

    Oh, I don’t know about that Matt.

    Kids never had a problem deciphering George Perez panels before, when there were about 250k of them buying his Avengers in the 70’s, his JLA, New Teen Titans, WW, CRISIS ON INFINITE EARTHS in the 80’s…

    Those books were chock full of characters in panels, especially Crisis… which has been imitated ad nauseaum to, well, current day!

    Also, someone somewhere must have thought enough of Waid and Perez’s Brave and Bold because there’s going to be a cartoon inspired by their reinvention this fall, you know, kind of like the Teen Titans cartoon based on his work as well!

    I don’t see too many networks banging down the doors of too many other creators looking to adapt their work for children’s television.

  22. I dont know if kids want to try to decipher george perez panels after reading easy to follow manga.

    Hey, I had no problem reading those panels when I was 8 and everyone wanted to draw like George Perez.

    Oh, crap, I’m sounding like a curmudgeon, aren’t I? “Back in my day, we didn’t have simplified art. We had detailed panels by artists who had an actual grasp of anatomy, and we liked it! Now get off my lawn!”

  23. I knew there was a problem when I saw more then one person there wearing Jose Luis Garcia Lopez/Dick Giordano (he was at the show, btw) illustrated t-shirts from Wall Mart. That old DC merchandising art from back in the day still has some legs it seems.

    Given the popularity of Dinosaur Comics and Wondermark (The creator, David Malki was also at Heroes Con) Larsen’s comment makes a lot of sense. To an artist… you know, one who draws things, the popularity of these strips is utterly horrifying.

  24. as a long time mainstream superhero type reader, i have learned to love and now seek out many an indie title. i rarely purchase ANY mainstream books at big cons or seek out back issues. and at events like MOCCA and HEROES, i actively seek out indie stuff ive been wanting to check out or anything that strikes my interest. at HEROES, i picked up quite a bit of indie island stuff. the hilarious Fart Party, Awesome Marcus Ninja, Superior Showcase, After-School Agent and The Utopiates to name a few.

  25. To me, the tables full of books were a thrill, b/c there was so much to choose from, and so much stuff that i hadn’t seen before.

    I really enjoyed the show, so i’m feeling defensive about any negative comments…excuse my emotional immaturity…it’s only temporary…

    Never had problems with George Perez art when i was a kid, either; Perez, Walt Simonson, John Byrne, Jerry Ordway were all favorites of mine. Kids can grasp and appreciate different styles.

    For me, finding a great indie book gives me that thrill i used to get from superhero comics (still do, just not as often). Lately it’s the type of stuff that you find in Indie Island that gives me that feeling of discovery and excitement i got the first time i read a Galactus story or the Great Darkness Saga…different subject matter for sure, but it’s still that “hey! this stuff is amazing and fun!” feeling.

  26. “Im surprised by thar Erik larsen comment about webcomics. I mean i dont like them either but im not a publisher. He sounds like he is set in his ways. That does not bode well.”

    I’m not, Larsen has always been very vocal about what he likes and doesn’t like, while at the same time saying he shouldn’t like every comic Image puts out, the company needs a variety of tastes.

  27. Ya but people change. In the 80s maybe kids would read easily read Perez stuff but I dont know about now. The standard is manga and his stuff looks so different from what they are used too.

  28. I was there and I loved the Indie Island setup. I’m so happy all of that talent was there and all of those publishers were there. However, I only bought one book (from Ad House). I would have loved to have dropped a ton of cash at all the indie publishers tables but the idea of not having enough gas money to get to my job and back until next pay day is pretty scary. I really hope the small press will continue to give things like Indie Island a chance. Top Shelf seems to do well at these mainstream shows but they have been doing it for years now. I’m not going to tell anyone how to spend their time and money but, as a fan, I really hope people will continue to give ideas like Indie Island a chance and I’m really greatfull to Dustin and Shelton of HeroesCon for making it happen. As a creator, would I have like to have seen people lined up the way they were for the mainstream guys? Sure. But as a fan, it was pretty freaking cool to be able to meet Jaime Hernandez and Jeffrey Brown at the same show where I could get a Herb Trimpe signature.
    And p.s. It was cool to meet Hedi too!

  29. George’s style may have changed but his dynamic is still the same. When George began in the industry 30 years ago, few if any adults were buying comics. They ‘were’ considered for kids back then and no one had a problem with his dynamic.

    It’s no different today. Besides, you highly underestimate the intelligence of today’s younger audience. They can play on a computer and they understand the capacity of all this new technology almost better than adults, as if they were preprogrammed before birth.

    So having a kid decipher a George Perez sequence is not the problem. It’s getting a kid to buy a comic that’s not somehow based in anime that’s the problem.

    Could be that all the non-anime comics of today aren’t as good as the creators and audience believes they are.

  30. Isn’t it time, at long last, to blame the children?

  31. “So having a kid decipher a George Perez sequence is not the problem. It’s getting a kid to buy a comic that’s not somehow based in anime that’s the problem.”So having a kid decipher a George Perez sequence is not the problem. It’s getting a kid to buy a comic that’s not somehow based in anime that’s the problem.”

    ya your right. Its ingrained in them.

  32. The Internet is not a menace for comic books. Quite the opposite, it is one of the avenues where a new space and a new audience for comic books may be found. Publishers should think more about pull marketing versus push marketing when dealing with comic books. That model works quite well on the Internet.

  33. “It’s no different today. Besides, you highly underestimate the intelligence of today’s younger audience. They can play on a computer and they understand the capacity of all this new technology almost better than adults, as if they were preprogrammed before birth.”

    Well … I dunno … there are a lot of stupid kids out there … They take to computers and what-not because that technology is there. Adults tend to want to “understand” everything … a kid just joyously takes to cell phones and text messaging cuz its a gadget, and you get to push lots of buttons. I hear stories on the news about teens sending nude pictures of themselves to their classmates, or posting films of themselves committing misdemeanors on youtube, and I’m not so sure about the intelligence …

    Of course, I’ve heard plenty of stories about how comics corrupt our youth, so who knows?

  34. You know…if there a decoder ring involved, I am willing to become a proud member of this Internet Menace.

  35. The Beat says:

    “Menace” is just my name for the mood of the panel, not anything anyone actually said.

  36. “Menace” is just my name for the mood of the panel, not anything anyone actually said.”

    Fair enough, but it’s indicative of the whole “Us v. Them” attitude instead of the “Us teaming up with Them” attitude that will win the day. The fact that the publishers (gross generalization) feel it is a menace to be fought means one thing:

    Readers will end up being the losers.

    We will end up paying more for less in a rapidly dwindling market. We will not be able to find the books we want to read. Retailers will cut down on orders and niche books will be eliminated from distribution. Potential new readers will spend their money elsewhere where they get entertainment value for money spent.

  37. “Also, I found a lot of the area in Indie Island very cluttered with all of the table space filled with books.”

    I’ve been reading HeroesCon reports for the last hour or so in my sweltering office (our AC just broke), and this is by far the funniest line I’ve seen yet.

    I definitely got reports from Buenaventura and Picturebox of disappointing sales, although Chris Staros told me that they had one of their best HeroesCon’s ever. Top Shelf has been setting up with us for years and years, though, so they’ve really built an audience with fans around here. I think that as Indie Island grows and creators return with new books to fans they met in previous years, things will be much more profitable for these creators. Maybe that’s just “if you build it they will come” thinking, but as someone who is very proud of what he’s built, I like to go for optimism.

    Thanks to everyone who made this year’s HeroesCon such an unmitigated success! We’re still kind of drunk on the praise, not to mention the lack of sleep.

  38. Big Head Press bought a booth in the Small Press section and our experience was rather mixed. Sales were not what we’d hoped for but better than our worst fears. We had a mild up-tick in sales on Sunday but that may be because we discounted our prices then to minimize our cost of shipping stock back home.

    Our booth was at the far north corner of the “Small Press” area and facing away from Indie Island, which did not help our visibility — although some of the other small press folks we talked to with better locations also had long faces.

    The price-sensitivity we discovered from attendees (the Sunday discounts) tells us high gas prices may well have been a factor, leaving attendees less money to spend.

    Next year, I will likely return but this time it will be a solo trip with a table rather than a booth. I do appreciate what Shelton and Dustin and crew are doing to promote Indie comics, it’s just too bad the attendees weren’t more hip to the program.

  39. nvigneaux says:

    Dustin,

    Taken out of context, I can see how that line would appear funny. However, I still believe a lot of the indie exhibitors should rethink their set-ups. You don’t need eight copies of a book on the table when two or four would suffice. Put up signs with your names on them in the space you just created by taking some of those books off of the table. Most of us have no idea what the major superhero artists look like, much less indie creators. I didn’t even notice Bryan Lee O’Malley until Sunday. I certainly understand the desire to get the most out of your investment by using all the space you possibly can, but by doing so you could end up getting less out of your investment. People tend to be drawn in by images and things which jump out at them. If everything is crowded together, it’s less likely that something will jump out. Whether it’s a mostly empty white table or a mostly full colorful table, it’s slightly off-putting to passers-by. Heroes Con wouldn’t be the same without the effort you put into Indie Island, and I would love to hear nothing but good things about exhibiting there. That was not the case here, and I was only trying to help.

    Scott Bieser,

    You guys were in kind of a bad spot. No offense, Dustin. It just happens that way sometimes. Sometimes it’s not so much where you’re located in the hall itself but what is around you as well. I’m sure there are times when setting up next to a major writer or artist benefits the lesser-known writer or artist next to them, and then there are times when the major draw will completely overshadow all of their neighboring creators resulting in little to no traffic because a lot of people won’t go through those long lines or crowds to get to the lesser-known creator who happens to be their favorite. Has Big Head Press put out any books other than Roswell, Texas? Every time I see an advertisement for you guys it has always been advertising that book. If that’s the only book you have out right now (other than what you may be serializing online), you would probably benefit from just having a table. No backdrop to worry about, and you would have one image from one book with an interesting title and a nice cover to draw people in.

    Maybe I’m wrong. Apparently my advice is more humorous than helpful. Next year, I hope Indie Island sees a major increase in revenue.

  40. Hi… I just wanted to pop in here and introduce myself. If you were at Heroes Con and were – at any time – near the concession stand, maybe you walked by my banner… Capes & Babes.

    Anyway, Heroes was my very first con – EVER (at least as an artist with a table). I had been to many conventions before as an attendee but this year was the year I decided to take the plunge and get a table at Heroes and Baltimore Comic Con in September.

    Maybe it’s because I was a rookie, but I had an absolute BLAST! It was great meeting and talking to everyone and the people that did stop by my table seemed to be very receptive of my work. If any of you stopped and talked to me, thank you. You probably have my postcard – it’s of my main character, Marc, wearing a Wonder Woman t-shirt and saying that it was the last clean one he could find.

    Anyway (part 2), I did a lot better on Friday and Saturday then I did on Sunday but I still made a small profit. my table was paid for in the first day so that made the rest of the convention extra special for me. I’m hoping Baltimore will be just as good as it’s going to be hard to convince the wife that it’s worth an extra $100 for next year’s con.

    But again, I had a blast!

    Just a new guy on the block…
    Chris Flick

    http://www.capesnbabes.com

Trackbacks

  1. […] Heidi reports that several art comic publishers had poor sales, which doesn’t surprise me. There were a couple of tables with lots and lots of similar-looking books with minimal or no signage. I found it confusing and overwhelming, and I’ve heard of these guys. It’s not the kind of art style or approach that will go over well at a mainstream convention, as opposed to a show more focused on do-it-yourself/art objects. I would recommend providing more guidance to the browsing customer, signs and labels and more space so that it’s easier to pick out individual items with the eye. […]

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