Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger

twitter Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger0facebook Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger0google Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger0pinterest Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger0tumblr Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badgerreddit Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger0stumbleupon Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger0email Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger

By Todd Allen

As Rob Liefeld’s Twitter feed continues to joust with the likes of Tom Brevoort and Scott Snyder, it’s time to steal a tactic from DC and Marvel.  Yes, it’s an Internet meme crossover: Rob Liefeld vs. Honey Badger.

liefeld honey badger Rob Liefeld Vs. Honey Badger

Comments

  1. TonyJazz says:

    Liefeld is such a sad case…. I hope Image finally gets the nerve to dump him, too…..

    He represents the worst of comics (especially in art) of the last 15 years.

    Poor guy needs to do something else….

  2. The way Liefeld is treated, he could go on a shooting rampage and be completely exonerated. He may not be Jim Lee or whomever, but he’s still a human being.

  3. Rob needs to create his own company and own his work. That would probably give him ultimate peace of mind and possible financial freedom.

  4. @Richard – I agree with you. The venom thrown at him, not only on the Internet but also in person at conventions, is uncalled for. I’m all for everyone having their opinion, afterall we are talking about ART, which is subjective to the reader.

    But, as Richard notes, there’s also a person behind that story. I’d rather see the comic community come together than shred one of our own.

  5. Paul D Houston says:

    Theres a college athlete who calls himself the Honey Badger, tyron mathieu, I believe, played for LSU. Got busted for smoking too much marijuana and kicked off team.

    I thought that’s what you were going for at first, guess not.

  6. horatio weisfeld says:

    Liefeld is an American artist who made good. He put his stuff out there and a lot of people (at least at one point) obviously liked it. He is a business man & artist who became successful using no duplicity (as far as I know.. never having personally dealt w/ the man). Some once argued that his sort of style was degrading the form but he is not so influential anymore. If RL sounds somewhat arrogant when he speaks.. I suspect many of the people who speak poorly of him, were they to have RL’s sort of long term high profile, would sound as bad or worse.

  7. Todd Allen says:

    @Paul – “Honey Badger don’t care” is an Internet meme that’s been around for a year or two. “Honey Badger don’t give a shit” and “Honey Badger takes what he wants” are also memes to come out of the original video.

    Rob knows exactly what he’s been doing with the Twitter. He just doesn’t care.

  8. Explain this to me again says:

    Haven’t been following this, but from an outsider pov: One of the founders of Image speaks out against ongoing creator injustice against him and his fellow colleagues and this is a negative why? Shouldn’t he be considered the hero in this movie?
    A couple of fellow creators, who know how to play the game, pull a Stan Lee and stab him in the back and they are applauded?
    Maybe I’m missing something.

  9. Jesse says:

    If Geoff Johns came out resigned from DC and went on twitter rampage I am sure just as many people would come out and trash his work, personality and decry him as everything that was wrong with comics in the last decade. There are simply too many people who transfer their love and childhood memories to a corporation.

  10. Explain this to me again says:

    Maybe comics do make you stupid:)

  11. Jason F says:

    @Richard Could you possibly have used a different example than shooting rampage? Tasteless and unnecessary.

    Yeah, there’s a human being. A human being whose lack of talent is really beside the point at this stage. He’s a jerk. He’s demonstrated that he’s a jerk many, MANY times, but no matter how much of a jerk he is, there will always be those who refuse to see it.

    @explain this Why don’t you follow it for a while, read what was actually written by all parties concerned, and then ask that question? You’re missing everything because, as you yourself admit, you don’t know anything about it.

  12. Explain this to me again says:

    @Jason however well you think you may or may not know Rob -it doesn’t mean he can treated however by a corporation. And it’s not just him as the trend shows.

  13. Jason F says:

    @explain I don’t know Rob, other than what he presents to the public. What he presents to the public, highlighted yesterday, is an arrogant, petulant child who throws anyone and everyone under the bus at the slightest (imagined, usually) provocation. He was being treated as an employee, just like everybody else. There was no abuse. He didn’t even claim any.

  14. Explain this to me again says:

    I don’t know everything about this, but maybe you know less.
    If everyone is just treated like an employee and it’s business as usual and nothing to speak out about then why the mass exodus from DC again?

  15. Synsidar says:

    One of the founders of Image speaks out against ongoing creator injustice against him and his fellow colleagues and this is a negative why? Shouldn’t he be considered the hero in this movie?

    Editors generally enforce policies and set standards for people to meet, but that statement assumes that quality is a priority. If it isn’t a priority for the publisher, an editor might primarily be concerned with cheerleading and public relations.

    I’ll agree that reactions to artwork are generally subjective; reactions to writing are less so. An example of an objective mistake in writing a story is an idiot plot. If the hero makes a mistake and causes trouble for himself as a result, and worse, needs to be rescued—is that the first time he’s done something stupid? If it isn’t, why is he a hero? Or, if you care to project consequences, why hasn’t he been killed? Or are his opponents so stupid and ineffectual that they can’t capitalize on his stupidity?

    The natural alternative to a story with an idiot plot is one that has a hero confronting an intelligent opponent, with a carefully thought-out plan. The hero wins by recognizing and exploiting a subtle weakness in the plan, surprising the villain and, perhaps, the reader.

    A reader might not care that a story has an idiot plot if what he cares about are conflict, the artwork, and a few minutes of diversion. But dismissing an idiot plot as a non-problem is wrong for the same reason as arguing that a slice of life story without a plot is fine if the character bits are entertaining. Nothing prevents the writer from providing a solid plot in addition to the character bits, or providing a solid plot in addition to entertaining artwork and action. Presuming that a reader will be satisfied with a partial story presumes that the readers are undemanding, at the very least.

    An onlooker can’t know who was at fault in Liefeld vs. DC unless he knows exactly what the conflict was about and how it developed.

    SRS

  16. The Gibbler says:

    It’s getting out of hand, I don’t have any particular love or hate for Rob Liefeld. I had the first 25 issues of X-Force, I had some Youngblood, everyone did, this is why he was a force(PUN) to be reckoned with. He was a millionaire in his 20’s because of all the people that bought 6 bagged issues of X-Force and 1 to read. He did create some memorable characters like Cable and Deadpool, he has a style all his own. I think it’s ok to just let him be mad and not add fuel to the fire. We’ve all had jobs that ended poorly and whether it was our fault or not, we had a chance to be mad and no one yelled at us for venting or in general dealing with it the way we chose. For those that love his stuff, it’s not like he’s going away, if anything his projects will be even more up your alley. For those that love DC and editors, that’s fine too, but let’s remember he was hired there and then given all those jobs. DC didn’t call me and ask hey can you take over on this book. Actually I’m still upset about that, I’ve been sending them glitter and fragrant soaps along with my art and half finished scripts for over 10 years.

    Main point, just relax, DC will be fine so will Rob, everyone will be fine, you won’t win any awards for choosing a side. How about we make some comics instead of commenting on All My Liefelds.

  17. @Jason F:

    But imagine if Liefeld is speaking the truth in the matter. It’s a great opportunity for others to invite themselves into the talk to brown-nose for the company a bit.If that doesn’t work for you, then consider the fact that the great George Perez (who has never in his long career been labeled a troublemaker) also left recently for essentially the same reasons. Mother of a coincidence there.

    And I specifically chose the imagery in my first post for their effectiveness. Something pused the Aurora idiot over the edge. In the same vein, show an ounce of freaking empathy and try to imagine yourself dealing with the Liefeld haters and naysayers- from Rob’s own perspective.

  18. Robot out of Left Field says:

    Let me hypothesize for a moment.

    We have an industry of egos. Rob’s we know is considerable. He also has a dedicated fan following that includes a few larger retailers.

    DC hires Rob because they hope his fan base will boost their sales.

    They get a one month bump, thanks to those retailers, and things go back to their decline. Fans come on because of Rob is balanced by fans leaving because of Rob. No one is more polarizing than he is amongst fans.

    Rob probably thought he was going to be the next hot talent at DC. But instead they want him to bring in line with their other books and because they haven’t been the sellers they wanted they decide to axe the crossover with Superman and probably prepare to cancel his titles.

    Rob finds out they are going to get the axe and jumps ship so he doesn’t have to be the creator on 2 books getting cut right after Hawk and Dove.

    Rob also knows he can dump on his editor who he knows can’t say anything while as at the same time he is blowing kisses to Dan, Jim and Bob.

    I really hope Rob decides to stay at Image and continues his work on Prophet and Glory, where his art has never looked better.

  19. Explain:
    “Haven’t been following this, but from an outsider pov: One of the founders of Image speaks out against ongoing creator injustice against him and his fellow colleagues and this is a negative why? Shouldn’t he be considered the hero in this movie?”

    He was! Then he called the editor out by name, accused him of having a “small pecker” but being a “big dick,” and then called Tom Brevoort a “loser fatass” and a “doucher,” publicly posted a private conversation with Scott Snyder and called him a “pretentious prick” completely unprovoked, and on and on like this. He basically took a flying leap off the moral high ground, and at this point, I honestly believe he deserves any crap he gets for it and more. Its unfortunate, though, because he raised a lot of good points about problems at DC, but they’re basically completely buried by his petty insults and bullying.

  20. Chris Hero says:

    Liefeld’s not only a human, he’s been a leader in creator rights for decades. Say what you want about him, but he never back-stabbed people the way Jim Lee has. It’s just sad the way some people have undying loyalty for a corporate logo, but will say the nastiest things about anyone who shares the opinion of the individual who walked away.

    BTW – Liefeld’s had incredible success as an editor, so he’s more than qualified to talk about the proficiency of editors he’s worked for.

  21. Explain this to me again says:

    @Jason Green he might not make a good lawyer, politician or even car sales man. But I’ll take “artistic temperament” any day over that.

  22. Robot out of Left Field says:

    @Chris Hero
    Knowing some of the old Image stories pre Rich Johnston I could tell you that very few of the Image creators really can be held up as examples of championing creators rights other than their own. Rob especially. But enough damage has been done for one day. Let us just leave things where they stand as Rob has made us all look bad and we should do all we can to not perpetuate that image any further.

  23. Adam S. says:

    @Jason F “Lighten up, Francis.”

  24. Darrell says:

    “He may not be Jim Lee or whomever, but he’s still a human being.”
    Wasn’t the editor he publicly called out as incompetent a human being as well?

  25. How are small dick and fat jokes at other people’s expense “artistic temperament”? There are plenty of comics people out there who are prickly pears who tell it like they see it without being outright jerks and resorting to insults.

  26. Anyone who is still following the mud-slinging here really ought to stop and think about why. There were some good points to be made early on, but… they’ve been made.

    Meanwhile, I have comics to make, and comics to read, and I’m pretty sure you all have one and/or the other too. How ’bout we do that?

  27. jonboy says:

    Holy Crap. Look at all these people defending Liefeld!

    Rob was in a situation of his own choosing. He CHOSE to go work for the DCnu52. (Why they called him is beyond me, but that’s a different story…Someone wanted to make the DCnu52 into Marvel 1990, I guess)

    He then CHOSE to NOT work at DCnu52 anymore.

    Why Rob needed to go on a big rant to state why he left is his game. To call out others when playing that game will only invite retaliation. That was how Rob chose to play it, and that’s what Rob has to live with.

    But to talk about others and not to expect them to respond? Ain’t gonna happen.

    And personally, I’m glad to see he’s gone. I’ve never knowingly or purposely purchased a Liefeld book, and I fully intend to keep that streak going. Hell, I won’t even buy a Deadpool comic for fear some $ will go back to Rob.

  28. @Darrell is this an article about how the editor is on the defensive from everyone and their mama?

  29. @jonboy
    He’s in the same boat as many others, not the first or the last, and there’s reason for that much deeper than any arrogance or inexperience or unprofessionalism on his part. I’m totally in his corner here, whether he’s a lame duck or not.

  30. @jonboy are you f$cking kidding me? You are defending an entertainment corporation. Thank god someone defends individuals. I think the multi-million dollar corporation will be okay, Batman will still have 6 books next month and plenty of mountain dew to peddle….breath Batman will be here tomorrow no matter what Rob says…..it’s okay.

  31. Ironically, another prophetic old post from New Comics Day:

    http://www.newcomicsday.com/ncd/2012/03/rob-liefeld-insane-press-respectfully-humors-him/

  32. horatio weisfeld says:

    I don’t know if I agree w/ Liefeld about anything but I’d probably vote for him over Romney or Obama.

  33. There will be songs written about this.

    Songs and books.

  34. I don;t think the issue is him quitting DC, what I’ve found distasteful is the verbal abuse he seems to be putting out.

  35. horatio weisfeld says:

    Songs and books.

    >>

    ..Pop-up books?

  36. horatio weisfeld says:

    Aw gee.. … now Rob Liefeld is..is … Rob Liefeld standing under the street light across the street from my building.. ooooo! … now he’s raising his fist and starting to …to ..to ..Rob Liefeld is starting to shake his fist at my window… ooohhhh!.. now he..he.. .. R-Rob Liefeld seems to be putting out a whole bunch of (distasteful) verbal abuse … ooohhh…aaahhh.. aaaahhhh…what am I gonna dooooooo?

  37. TrueBeliever says:

    Love him or hate him, Rob Liefeld has been a pioneer in the comic book industry, and deserves so much more respect from the audience here, in what is suppose to be the most knowledgeable and well-read comics site.

    His commercial for Levis jeans in the early 90s put a new new young face on the comic book industry. No longer were comics just drawn by old men in hidden away studios, but now by a younger hipper generation, and overnight, comic book artists were recognizable stars.

    I believe this pivotal spot helped launch the practice of putting a face behind the art. Prior to this, unless you lived in New York City and in the industry, you could walk past these very same guys and not know who they were. And with greater recognition, it meant higher salaries for artists.

    In addition, Liefeld’s comments regarding the outsourcing of comics art to overseas sources has been widely ignored here. Which is a sign that Marvel and DC is slowly winning by weeding out any quality and advancement in the medium, especially if the business model is to replace current artists with cheaper clones. Take a closer look at the books solicited each month and see that a third, if not more, are now drawn by guys from Europe, Asia or South America. So understand that when the day comes that the “art” of comics becomes regurgitated crap by some unknown guys in hidden away studios overseas, understand that YOU contributed to that by chastising one of the truest pioneers of modern American superhero comics.

  38. h2world says:

    @TrueBeliever:

    You’ve sighted a whole lot of reasons why Rob should clearly enter the presidential race (and you should be campaign manager).

    I assume, from the remarks you attribute to Rob, that if he were to become a candidate, his platform would have an aggressive protectionist slant?

  39. filippod says:

    @TrueBeliever wrote:

    “Take a closer look at the books solicited each month and see that a third, if not more, are now drawn by guys from Europe, Asia or South America. So understand that when the day comes that the “art” of comics becomes regurgitated crap by some unknown guys in hidden away studios overseas […]”

    This an ignorant and racist (or xenophobic, if you will) comment.

    I find it really offensive.

  40. Mycroft says:

    ” Take a closer look at the books solicited each month and see that a third, if not more, are now drawn by guys from Europe, Asia or South America. So understand that when the day comes that the “art” of comics becomes regurgitated crap by some unknown guys in hidden away studios overseas, understand that YOU contributed to that by chastising one of the truest pioneers of modern American superhero comics.”

    “Guys from Europe, Asia or South America” you mean people like Larroca, Coipel, Yu, Ramos, …

  41. TrueBeliever says:

    to filippod and mycroft (and others who share their viewpoint), your comments show you really have a very limited understanding of the current state of the comic book business, on top of the fact that you couldn’t be further from the truth with your own over the top claims of racism. I am merely pointing out the fact that the Big Two have been intensified in their efforts as of late to hiring foreign artists who are, for the most part, clones of existing American artists, who are willing to work at rates that are pennies on the dollar. This is not the same for writers. Only artists. This business model essentially works to transform the comics industry from a creator based format, to one of a faceless corporate controlled characters.

    I challenge you to thoroughly go over the list of Marvel and DC solicits for the next few months, and of the artists listed, how many of them are guys that are based overseas? How many of them are newer guys, guys just recently breaking into the industry, and whom you probably have never seen at a comic con before?

    Yes, there are international guys in the past who have established themselves, some of them started out living in the US or Canada and then moved back overseas or vice versa. In the late 90’s there was an influx of Filipino artists. Then a wave of Brasilian artists. And more recently a wave of Spaniards and Italians. There is nothing wrong with international artists, especially if their work elevates the medium.

    However, CB Cebowski, for Marvel, has been traveling overseas every month for tha past few years (sometimes for weeks at a time) performing “talent searches” or contests. Those international trips way outnumber the ones here states side. Why is that? Is it because there is a lack of talent here? It’s because the foreign guys work for less money, period. And, they are for the most part more controllable because they are overseas and speak s different language.

    I’m merely pointing out that as this trend continues, within a few years, the fans’ ability to actually interact with the artist will be eliminated. There won’t be any Twitter drama like what is going on with Rob, because artists — the backbone of this industry and what separates a COMIC book from just a book — will be removable cogs in the machine. The working guys will be hidden away in a studio in a foreign country, and the industry as a whole will resemble one closer to the Golden and Silver Age, where the big topic of creator rights will be non-existent because once again, there will be no artists to fight for creator rights and the large companies will own everything.

    The comics industry is special in that there is a very thin line between the actual pros and fans, compared to any other entertainment industry. It’s very easy for a fan to walk up to/tweet/or facebook a pro and strike up a conversation. But if what I am talking about takes a greater hold, then that part will be soon eliminated.

    I believe I have a very valid point and I am disappointed that there are some who were so quick to slap negative labels on my comments. I believe that a large part of Liefeld’s argument with editorial has parts that cross over into this. If you eliminate the superstar artist, if you eliminate buyers who will strictly buy a comic book just for the creator, then you are left with just the characters in the books to maintain. And since the companies own and control that component completely, then ultimately the fans will lose out to what will become just a field of mediocrity.

  42. filippod says:

    @TrueBeliever

    “I believe I have a very valid point and I am disappointed that there are some who were so quick to slap negative labels on my comments.”

    You expressed your point in your second post.

    Your first post is aggressive and poorly argumented.

    Let me stress again this sentence:

    “regurgitated crap by some unknown guys in hidden away studios overseas”

    This is a generalized and offensive assertion and there is nothing to counterbalance it – or to expand on it – in your first post.

  43. Didn’t Leinil Yu just do an interview last week that said that Marvel basically has set page rates for new talent, and that they’re the same regardless of where they work?

  44. MBunge says:

    “If you eliminate the superstar artist, if you eliminate buyers who will strictly buy a comic book just for the creator, then you are left with just the characters in the books to maintain.”

    A circumstance which was the norm back when comics sold way, way WAAAAAAAAY more than they do today.

    Mike

  45. Although I’ve never been a fan of Liefeld, I thought his original comments were worthy of; at the very least, empathy for what he had endured. However, as time has passed, he has lost the “moral high ground” and is now acting very childlike and foolish.

    When I was young; and quit or was fired from jobs, I would act out in much the same way. Now that I’m 39, I wish them well and move on stating only things that would be considered “politically correct”, so as not to “burn bridges”. Liefeld is old enough to know better.

    Just when we had finally managed to forget John Byrne & his mouth….enter: Rob Liefeld.

  46. jonboy says:

    @Jesse
    “You are defending an entertainment corporation. Thank god someone defends individuals.”

    Look at Rob’s statements again. HE is the one who is attacking individuals. Multiple individuals at that. He’s not attacking the company.

    No. HE’S calling out individuals.

    Someone who, by his own accounts is a multimillionaire, is attacking people who have less than him.

    So, by your own statement, Rob is not requiring defending, but rather the reverse.

  47. jonboy says:

    @TrueBeliever

    “It’s very easy for a fan to walk up to/tweet/or facebook a pro and strike up a conversation.”

    It’s very easy for a fan to approach a pro?
    If you want to wait in line 2 hours in order to chat for 30 seconds, sure.

    And last I checked, countries outside of the US have twitter and Facebook too. So that’s not an issue.

    No. One of the big reasons they’re looking for outside the US talent? = Something new. Something fresh.
    They did it with the Filipino artists in the 70s, the British writers in the 80s, the Japanese influence of the 90s, and the Brazilian artists in the 00s.

    Fresh blood needs to be brought in every now and then, or you get too much inbreeding.

  48. Robot out of Left Field says:

    @TrueBeliever
    In your second post you say, “your comments show you really have a very limited understanding of the current state of the comic book business,”… Then go on to show you have no idea either.

    I don’t know if this is going to be pointless but here goes.

    Marvel and DC comics are looking for talent across the globe for different reasons than IDW and Dynamite. While the later two companies need to find cheap up and coming artists to make a profit, Marvel and DC don’t. Not to say they don’t have a tiered rate system, which they do, but it’s based on performance, experience and how good they are.

    Marvel and DC usually pay foreign artists the same rates as American artists (they all talk to each other so everyone knows what the rates are). The real reasons they go talent hunting are these.

    1- To actually find new talent and keep their rosters full and fresh.
    2- Go forbid that Marvel and DC should actually find an audience beyond our coastlines! Hiring artists from different countries can help the sales of their books in other territories.
    3- Now here’s the one that’ll get me into trouble but it is true, talent outside the US are often more professional and work conscious. I do say ‘often’ and by no means does it mean ‘always’. They also have less conventions to go to which can really take its toll on a titles creators.

    No matter how you try spinning it Rob was out of order. He picked on someone who he knew couldn’t fight back while at the same time thanked their bosses. He then attacked another creative team. Rob was once hot and now he is not so. That’s tough for any one, ask Gary Coleman (oops, you can’t ), but don’t disgrace yourself and the industry publicly like this. Agree to have someone like Heidi or Gary Groth to interview you and answer all the questions so nothing is left out.

  49. horatio weisfeld says:

    No. One of the big reasons they’re looking for outside the US talent? = Something new. Something fresh.

    >>
    @jonboy >> No. They are not world-centric art directors (LOL) but left brained hacks, looking to save money, one way or the other. The first off-shore artist they hire will be the one who makes them money – and the last will be the one who loses them money.

    @TrueBeliever: And so what exactly would you do about this? … It’s called “business” – and more recently known as “global business” – you may like it or not – but there is nothing you (or I) can do about it. It’s the same thing when I hire somebody in seAsia to build some web site I designed – Am I supposed to hire only Americans to do that work? (I’m sure many of those American web guys think they are “web artists”) — I don’t think so .. As you point out: history never has (and never will) see only American artists as the only folks entitled to draw American comic books. .. the smartest thing Americans can do is NOT (N-O-T !!!!) to stake their future on the comic book industry.

  50. horatio weisfeld says:

    I don’t know if this is going to be pointless but here goes.

    >>

    @Robot out of Left Field:

    Yeah – what you say sounds pretty darn out of whack to me:

    I’ve spent 25-30 years talking to business people in arts and entertainment – and I don’t think I can think of one single instance of someone explaining to me that they were beginning any sort of out sourcing policy (as opposed to the odd hiring of a single person) for reasons having to do increasing (esthetic) quality.

    … as a matter of fact, I can’t really remember at anytime hearing any corporate policy makers anywhere, ever, talk about policy shifts in the interests of better (esthetic) quality – only profits.

  51. Robot out of Left Field says:

    @
    Horatio

    Did I say outsourcing? Yes creators are hired outside the country, something that is not new and has been happening in comics for a long, long time.

    Their editorial departments are talent hunting, have always been talent hunting and will always talent hunt. And they will go wherever the talent is.

  52. Saber Tooth Tiger Mike says:

    horatio weisfeld ” the smartest thing Americans can do is NOT (N-O-T !!!!) to stake their future on the (American) comic book industry.” Americans are being told to not stake their future in any industry at this point, unless they are willing to work for peanuts. Hence, the current situation with growing unemployment, debt, trade imbalances, and lost know-how.

    I won’t say I’ m an expert on globalization, but the fiercest defenders of globalization always say at some point in their argument that foreign workers are, as a group, superior to their American counterparts. Words like lazy, greedy, entitled, and racist are used.

    Pro-globalization arguments seem to be designed to appeal to the ambition in every person to be a master and to command an army of subordinates. Every slave at some point must fantasize about being a master.

    Ok, now to contradict myself.

    TrueBeliever writes “His commercial for Levis jeans in the early 90s put a new new young face on the comic book industry. No longer were comics just drawn by old men in hidden away studios, but now by a younger hipper generation, and overnight, comic book artists were recognizable stars.

    I believe this pivotal spot helped launch the practice of putting a face behind the art. Prior to this, unless you lived in New York City and in the industry, you could walk past these very same guys and not know who they were. And with greater recognition, it meant higher salaries for artists. ”
    It would seem that high salaries. along with high production values, are part of the problem why monthly comic books are a niche products.
    The cost of paying blah blah blah a “good wage” is passed directly onto the customer. Management does not take a pay-cut to pay blah blah blah a nice page rate. The superhero comics industry was built on a sweatshop model, where speed and cookie cutter production were more important than artistic quality.

    When comics books became being seen as a collectible object, or a piece of Art, they became more expensive and lost their accessibility, since art is expensive (and corresponding scarce.) and not everyone can afford it or have access to it.

    I wonder how Rob Liefield sees his work: disposable entertainment for the masses or Art?

  53. Saber Tooth Tiger Mike says:

    *correspondingly scarce

  54. horatio weisfeld says:

    “Americans are being told to not stake their future in any industry at this point, unless they are willing to work for peanuts. Hence, the current situation with growing unemployment, debt, trade imbalances, and lost know-how.”

    >>

    @Saber Tooth Tiger Mike:

    Yeah – I don’t know what anyone is “telling” you but I guess that is a fair conclusion to draw from much of what has been (and is) going on.

    >>

    “fiercest defenders of globalization always say at some point in their argument that foreign workers are, as a group, superior to their American counterparts. Words like lazy, greedy, entitled, and racist are used.”

    >>

    @Saber Tooth Tiger Mike:

    If any directed at me:

    I don’t think you can see what I said as “defending” globalization in any way other than to say that I think it a force of nature, rather than some plot by big business (although, obviously, big business facilitates globalization) and I don’t think there is much we can do to stop it. Big business will ultimately become short sighted and trip itself up, like it always has and always will.

    I think WE only become “lazy” and “stupid” when we assume that something will last forever and don’t prepare for the down side — that’s how people become peons / slaves — which in fact maybe the near future for many Americans.

  55. horatio weisfeld says:

    Their editorial departments are talent hunting, have always been talent hunting and will always talent hunt. And they will go wherever the talent is.

    >>
    @Robot out of Left Field:

    OK: I mean, if they we over looking more “commercial” American talent for the sake of saving a few (short term) pennies by hiring foreign talent, then someone could legitimately complain that the business people in comics are ruining their own business (happens all the time) – but that’s not what seems to be going on overall in comics (at least as far as I can see), although I’m sure someone could site some example some where.

    I was having some drinks w/ a business person yesterday and we started talking about comics, and she said, “it’s really a licensing business”. What she meant was that comics are really (at this point fairly un-crucial) advertising for the real business ..so how much do you think corporate is going to budget to pay people who work in comics to keep it going?? — the answer I suspect is .. NOT VERY MUCH — there (me thinks) is the problem – not foreign workers (or what any doughnut head may have to say about them).

  56. otistfirefly says:

    >>>Yeah, there’s a human being. A human being whose lack of talent is really beside the point at this stage. He’s a jerk. He’s demonstrated that he’s a jerk many, MANY times, but no matter how much of a jerk he is, there will always be those who refuse to see it.

    Oh, don’t cloud the issue by pointing out you get what you give!

    And yeah, he’s a jerk, talentless etc etc etc. The main beef to me is, again, WHICH IDIOT AT DC said “hey… lets get ROB LIEFELD!!!!” I can’t blame the scorpion for stinging the idiots at DC that were stupid enough to hire him in the first place. THOUSANDS of starving artists out there and they hire ROB LIEFELD!

  57. TrueBeliever says:

    I believe some of you are echoing my sentiments. Especially with regards to horacio’s last comments about the comics industry being regarded as the licensing branch for movies, toys, video games, etc. The more the fans bash a pioneer like Liefeld, the quicker we will move towards that model, if we were not already immersed in that already. Take a look at San Diego Comic Con as an example. What was once dubbed the “Super Bowl” of comics is now a movie/television/toy/video games event — with a splash of actual comics.

    Understand what Liefeld’s point of view is when he said that editors work for the artists, and not the other way around — a comment many here have said was arrogant or offensive. His stance is that of the artists/creator being the unique difference as to why a consumer would purchase a book. That is the very basis why he and a band of other top talent went off and formed Image in the 90s, and why this comics industry was able to enjoy a rebirth in popularity then.

    For the people who slam him for that stance, they are in essence (whether they know it or not), promoting the exact opposite viewpoint, and paving the path for large corporations to eliminate artistic uniqueness and embrace a gentrified product.

    Comics should not be viewed as a parallel to many other regular professions. It is a job that requires an exclusive and highly trained set of skills. While some may argue that photoshop has recently paved the way for lesser talents to break into the industry, that is a separate discussion. It is much closer aligned to professional athletes, than an office worker.

    Moving back to the subject of outsourcing jobs to international artists, where an entire set of new problems and issues exists. The scripts are written in English, and must be translated to whatever language that artist is native to (usually by an agent or handler of the artist, who takes his percentage — there are a few guys you see at conventions who represent foreign artists and provides this service for them). There are also cultural and contemporary disconnects. I recently opened up a Superman book drawn by a Brazilian artist. The story was suppose to take place in New York City. But NONE of the backgrounds or environments were specific to NYC. Instead, they were just generic brick walls and city settings. And yet, not one peep from netizens complaining about this lack of detail, or probably not one reader noticed except for myself. To the jonboys out there who think foreign artists refresh the medium, I’m not sure if we’re reading the same books. Or care about teh same things.

    Liefeld’s vision of the roles editorial and the publisher plays is not that far out there. It’s the very same model held in the mainstream publishing world, like HarperCollins or Scholastic. There, the roles of the artist or writer is even or superior to that of the editor. And in that industry, the talent are fairly well compensated, and usually own their own creations.

  58. MBunge says:

    “Liefeld’s vision of the roles editorial and the publisher plays is not that far out there. It’s the very same model held in the mainstream publishing world, like HarperCollins or Scholastic. There, the roles of the artist or writer is even or superior to that of the editor.”

    Except, Leifeld is invoking it in the area of work-for-hire. I’m no expert, but I’d bet a log of money that the guy or girl cranking out the latest Star Wars/Doctor Who/Buffy/whatever book isn’t given quite the same status and deference as Stephen King or Lee Child.

    If you’re going to play with someone else’s toys, don’t you have to follow their rules?

    Mike

  59. horatio weisfeld says:

    @otistfirefly & @TrueBeliever:

    To my eyes: you guys have both made correct and interesting (& ironic) observations about Rob Liefeld – which are not mutually exclusive – although some probably think that they would have to be.

    Liefeld seems to me, more than anything, a product of his time; if nothing else: a true “outlier” in corporate American comics.

  60. TrueBeliever says:

    MBunge, yes and no. Again, comics is an industry all on it’s own that it would be unfair to simplify matters down to black and white. For example, without creative uniqueness, we would not have had Frank Miller’s Dark Knight, which most would agree ushered Batman from the campy Adam West arena into what is now the current more gritty Dark Knight Rises empire slash money machine.

    From the artist’s perspective, they are hired based on a multitude of factors, ranging from talent, cache, reliability, etc. It is not so much a “service” that they are providing, as when you’re hiring a plumber or electrician, but a brand and level of trust in creating a future for a property.

    Yes, because much of the industry model is based on work-for-hire, there are some overlying restrictions. But again, artists (and writers) feel they are hired because they themselves bring a certain uniqueness to a project, and when that is overridden by a person or group of persons who’s sole position is not based on creative expression but rather managerial or even business statistical duties, then surely you can see where conflict then begins to develop, and in this case, erupt into what has happened with Liefeld’s departure.

  61. filippod says:

    @TrueBeliever re: “cultural and contemporary disconnects”

    A good artist with proper reference (books, pictures, movies…) can draw anything.

    By your logic a US artist should not draw European, Asian or African (etc.) settings.

    And nobody should draw comics set in the past.

    And is an artist who never moved from Texas more suited than a Mexican one to draw New York?

  62. @Robot: Rob Liefeld isn’t drawing Glory or Prophet for Image. Glory is being drawn by Ross Campbell and Prophet is being drawn by Simon Roy. It’s not Liefeld’s work at all, so he can’t really get the credit for how amazing both those books look currently.

    Liefeld isn’t even writing either of those titles; that’s being handled by Joe Keatinge and Brandon Graham.

  63. TrueBeliever says:

    @filippod re: “cultural and contemporary disconnects”

    You’re coming to rather dramatic conclusions on your part, and putting words in my mouth, which is not fair.

    Yes, I agree that a “good” artist should be able to handle researching for references. But if you read what my point was, in that the foreign artists being hired are not necessarily “good” artists but rather CLONES of current artists and CHEAPER, you can see that quality has and will continue to dip.

    And I hoped my Superman example would help point that out, albeit just one example, but I’m sure I could dig up others just by picking up any book off the shelf. For the most part, again, when you’re translating one script from English to another language, there is always some nuance that will be lost. Coupled with contemporary or cultural differences, mistakes and shortcuts are bound to happen.

    It’s not a “logic” issue but rather a “facts” issue with the work that is being pumped out by most of those guys. And to wrap up this point, it’s not just international artists who are guilty of this, there are plenty of American pros who are lazy and don’t bring that extra effort to their work.

  64. horatio weisfeld says:

    Funny how this thread has un-degenerated into a reasonably intelligent discussion / LOL

    Otherwise (regarding the look of todays mainstream comics and what if any unique qualities of art and design seem to be contained therein):

    .. I find the look of today’s comics (I guess mainly, thinking of Marvel stuff) to be somewhat bland and appearing more of the product from kids who trained in art school to be story boarders or do production design, rather than comic book fans. For me look of most current comics is a near complete opposite to the every-panel-is-a-pose look of the art from the Image guys. I don’t think this is so much a reaction to McFairlane-Liefeld and co so much as a clear indication of how beholden the comics really are to the film community (who like their comics to look like..story boards) – all the more ironic then (at least for me) that the comics seem to have made such a calculated move away from Image style, less from a reaction to image itself – and seemingly more from a genuine commercial necessity.

  65. filippod says:

    @TrueBeliever

    I understand your argument “cheap artist = poor product”.

    I don’t agree with the extension “foreign artist = cheap artist = poor product” that you keep on making.

    I imagine that West European artists can’t be cheap (e.g. Italians, British, etc.) as life there is very expensive.

    Conversely, what is little money for an US artist would be a respectable amount of money for an artist from developing countries so – assuming they are really paid less, which I don’t know – he/she can afford to produce better work, not worse.

    Finally, an underpaid US artist will turn in equally bad work.

    Re: the “cultural disconnects” I didn’t put any word in your mouth. I just tried to explain why I find your rationale flawed. Just my opinion.

  66. horatio weisfeld says:

    I don’t agree with the extension “foreign artist = cheap artist = poor product” that you keep on making.

    >>

    ditto.

  67. filippod says:

    @Truebeliever: “I hoped my Superman example would help point that out” […] “NONE of the backgrounds or environments were specific to NYC. Instead, they were just generic brick walls and city settings.”

    Here is my example:

    http://www.comicbookresources.com/assets/images/articles/1336419204.jpg

    Sara Pichelli, Italian artist.

  68. filippod says:

    I should add:

    Sara Pichelli, Italian artist, 2012 Eisner nominee, 2012 Stan Lee Award winner (Best Penciler).

    Some other 2012 non US Eisner nominees:

    – Francesco Francavilla (Italian)
    – Marcos Martin (Spanish)
    – Sean Phillips (British)
    – Eduardo Risso (Argentinian)
    – Tonci Zonjic (Croatian)

    All work or worked for Marvel, DC or Image

  69. horatio weisfeld says:

    If American Artists think they have something better than what Marvel has (and Marvel won’t hire them, for whatever reason) – then those better artists should figure out some way to start their own business – AND CRUSH MARVEL! (or otherwise absorb some revenue that would otherwise be part of Marvel’s cash flow)

    THAT is THE AMERICAN WAY.

  70. I’d point out that Jack Kirby’s New York didn’t look much like New York City really does — not even when Kirby lived there.

    But having worked with artists from Spain, Canada, Australia, Britain, Brazil and more, I’ll also note that they’re not less expensive, not if they can draw good comics. If Marvel hires a terrific Italian artist and pays him badly, DC will offer him more money to draw for them. There are publishers who hire non-US talent for cheap rates, because what they’re doing is looking for talented beginners. They hire homegrown newcomers for cheap rates, too.

    But any artist good enough for more than one publisher to want their work will benefit from competition for their services regardless of where they live. Ivan Reis isn’t a cut-rate artist, just because he’s from South America.

    And how accurately an artist draws New York has nothing to do with where they live.

  71. Robot out of Left Field says:

    @Elin
    I know Rob isn’t working on those titles, sorry, I was being sarcastic.

Speak Your Mind

*